Curse

Seron Dalar · Aug 05, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I'm a thief at heart. Whenever I get a game, I instantly try to figure out the best class, race, whatever choices for sneaking around, disarming traps, persuasion, etc. Now, usually I pay for it later on, since almost every game is easiest if you fight in melee, but I enjoy it anyway.

I heard that Rangers fulfill some traditional roles of the rogue. But that's just not true. Traps are the only thing conceivably similar to a rogue's skills. So, even though I'm sure it's been done before, I'll propose my idea for the Rogue class. Rogues would be another melee class, which is needed, but obviously they'd be specialized. I don't have energy costs or recharge times, but those aren't really important just now. Also, the numbers could change, but again-- not that important.

Class: Rogue
Weapons available: Various kinds of daggers/knives
Primary Attribute: Agility-- grants either 1% speed increase or 1% chance to dodge attacks per attribute point. (I don't know which, or if either would be too cheap or something.) I didn't think of skills for Agility, but I guess there might be a few.

Attribute: Dexterity-- no inherent bonus. Dexterity deals with any skill involving nimble use of the fingers. There are also many trap-related skills. Examples:
Tripwire: Trap. Any opponent who triggers it is knocked down for (1...3) seconds.
Sleight of Hand: Skill. All nearby enemies are interrupted. (I don't think there are any skills that do this right now.)
Detect Traps: Skill. Reveals all hostile traps nearby. (This could mean that they glow white on the map and are pinged on the mini-map, for instance.)
Disarm Trap: Skill. (60... 90%) chance for one nearby hostile trap to be removed. If the skill fails, the trap is triggered. (Detect Traps would be unnecessary, but obviously very useful.)
Jam Trap: Skill. One nearby hostile trap does not work for (6... 21) seconds. (Less risky alternative to Disarm Trap.)
Rig Trap: Skill. (40...80)% chance for one nearby hostile trap to become an allied trap. If the skill fails, the trap is triggered. (Again, Detect Traps is unnecessary but useful.)
Signet of Determination: Signet. For (3...7) seconds, you cannot be interrupted and you gain (10...25) armor. (The trap skills would take probably four or five seconds and be easily interrupted, so this would be useful.)
Signet of Chance: Signet. For 3 seconds, all skills have a casting time of 3/4, but there is a 50% chance of failure. If a spell fails, you take (50...30) damage and are knocked down.
Create Barrier: Trap. Creates a Barrier with (150...250) hit points. This Barrier disappears after 30 seconds and cannot be healed or enchanted. (Now, I'm not sure about this one, but I think it'd be an effective way of blocking places off without being too cheap. If the HP is kept low, and you can't heal it or anything, plus a 60-second recharge time, you couldn't really spam it but it might still be useful.)
Steal Enchantment: Spell. One enchantment is removed from the enemy and placed onto you, and you gain (30...75) health.
Steal Weapon: Skill. For (4...9) seconds, touched enemy has Weakness, and you gain (4...21) damage per attack.
Explosive Barrier: Elite Trap. Creates an Explosive Barrier with (150...250) hit points. This Barrier disappears after 30 seconds. If the Barrier is destroyed, it explodes and deals (40...75) damage to all nearby enemies.

Attribute: Dagger Mastery-- whatever bonus is inherent with Marksmanship, if there is one (I don't play a Ranger and don't feel like checking). Obviously, Dagger Mastery deals with usage of daggers in melee combat. They'd be quicker than swords, but deal less damage. Examples:

Double Stab: Dagger Attack. Attacks one enemy twice in rapid succession. Each attack deals (12...4) less damage than normal.
Poisoned Strike: Dagger Attack. Poisons enemy for (5...14) seconds.
Throw Dagger: Dagger Attack. Can hit enemies at a range, but deals (7...2) less damage. If you move to the location where the thrown dagger fell, Throw Dagger is instantly recharged.
Quick Strike: Dagger Attack. Attacks (50...66)% faster than normal.
Energy Daggers: Spell. In 3 seconds, all nearby enemies take (25...40) damage. If the enemy is attacking, then that enemy is knocked down.
Sure Strike: Dagger Attack. If Sure Strike is "blocked" or "evaded", it hits anyway and blinds the enemy for (4...9) seconds.
Twisting Strike: Dagger Attack. For each "Hex" on the enemy, Twisting Strike deals (9...16) more damage. (Is there already something like this? I'm not sure.)
Dizzying Feint: Skill. Target enemy is turned around. If the enemy was attacking, that enemy is knocked down for (1...3) seconds.
Confusing Feint: Skill. Target enemy is turned around. If the enemy was attacking or casting a spell, that enemy is dazed for (5...11) seconds.
Star Stab: Elite Dagger Attack. Hits five times in rapid succession. The first attack has a 15% miss chance. For each attack, 20% is added to this.

Attribute: Subterfuge-- no inherent bonus. Subterfuge involves tricking the enemy, sneaking around, and movement on the field. Examples:

Backstab: Attack. Backstab deals +(20...41) more damage if the enemy's back is turned.
Sneak: Enchantment Spell. Caster is hidden for (10...21) seconds. If the caster attacks or uses an ability, Sneak ends. (I'm not sure exactly what being hidden would entail. I'm thinking you'd disappear from the mini-map and the regular map, but if you were targeted before you'd still be targeted. I don't know exactly.)
Elusive Feint: Spell. Caster teleports behind target enemy and Cripples that enemy for (4...8) seconds.
Signet of Celerity: Signet. Caster moves 100% faster for (6...11) seconds. If caster takes damage, Signet of Celerity ends.
Dwayna's Wager: Spell. (60...85%) chance to heal caster for (30...70) damage. If Dwayna's Wager fails, caster takes (50...25) damage instead.
Shadow Walk: Enchantment Spell. Caster is hidden for (10...21) seconds and moves 33% faster. If the caster attacks or uses an ability, Shadow Walk ends.
Reveal Foes: Spell. All nearby hidden enemies are revealed. 50% failure chance with 4 Subterfuge or less. (Could this include devourers? Heh...)
Healing Shade: Enchantment Spell. Target ally is hidden for (5...8) seconds and receives Health regeneration of (4...7) for that time.
Dark Strike: Attack. If caster is hidden, deals +(20...41) damage.
Ambush: Elite Enchantment Spell. All allies are hidden for (10...21) seconds. If any ally attacks or uses an ability, Ambush ends for all allies.

Right... just some ideas. What do you think?

Chrisby Pwns · Aug 06, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I Want A Rogue!!! Give Us Rogues Give Us Rogues!

Seron Dalar · Aug 06, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Aw... only one response? This is like my second post, and I thought it was fairly well thought out, even if it's probably not the most original idea... anyone else have any thoughts?

Pinch · Aug 06, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Sleight of Hand: Skill. All nearby enemies are interrupted. (I don't think there are any skills that do this right now.)

Cry of Frustration

The ability to hide in GW would, like others have stated, make pvp a big greif fest, because they would find some combo of skills to keep themselves hidden forever.

Seron Dalar · Aug 06, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Nah, Cry of Frustration is for everyone in an area at the target. It's like Ice Spikes compared to Frozen Burst (wait, nobody uses water magic except me)... uh... Fireball compared to Inferno.

Wouldn't Reveal Foes alleviate that? Especially if it had a low recharge time. You could have a Spirit or something that prevented it too... I guess I see your point, though.

Besides, say the hiding spells have a casting time of 2 or more, plus a recharge time of maybe 30 or 45, even 60. If you can still target (and call) enemies you had targeted before they were hiding, and any spell or attack means that the hiding is broken, it wouldn't be as much of a grief fest-- there's no way of hiding forever. Hell, you could even make it so that taking damage ends hiding, which would also sort of make sense. It'd be a little annoying, maybe, but Spell Breaker annoys me, Nature's Renewal annoys me, and Backfire annoys me, so that's not really grounds for dismissal. I'd say Ambush works because it requires a lot of coordination-- if anyone makes a mistake, or even casts Mending or some Attunement spell or something, even just a Glyph, the whole thing ends. Between all that, I'd say hiding is fair. (Shadow Walk is the only one I might look at.) Though I'd grant you that the duration range for those hiding spells ought to be wider. Maybe (3...18) or something.

Dax · Aug 06, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

One of my fav characters to play, yea a Rogue would be cool. Too bad they couldn't pick pocked characters in the arena

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 06, 2005, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Wouldn't all the anti-traps require more traps for the ranger? Or more powerful/longer lasting ones?

Seron Dalar · Aug 06, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Yes, that's a slight problem with them. I didn't come up with more traps for Dexterity-- partially because I'm not sure what Rangers already have been used-- but I'm sure there would be. Say a trap that poisons, or one that dazes. I was just kind of thinking it would be a neat thing to have since there isn't really any other way of doing anything about traps, especially if they're in a chokepoint. But even if there weren't more Ranger traps, there's what, four anti-trap moves there? Detect, Disarm, Rig, Jam. I can't think off the top of my head of others that would really be useful, and you'd probably only take one or two to any given fight, if that. I guess it would depend somewhat on how many Rogue traps there were, and if they were useful enough to be a little more prevalent (although I definitely do see some Rangers who use traps). Still, it fits well with the Rogue class idea, and is certainly functional.

Raumoheru · Aug 06, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

i think this is a great idea!

and along with what Sagius said, i think that traps should last longer/be more effective. there should also be a skill for ranger trappers that says something like "for 10 seconds next trap is not easily interupted and this skill ends" kind of like glyph of concentration for spells.

Zell Murasame · Aug 06, 2005, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seron Dalar

Sleight of Hand: Skill. All nearby enemies are interrupted. (I don't think there are any skills that do this right now.)

Cry of Frustration - Spell : If target foe is using a skill, that foe and nearby foes are interrupted and suffer 10-37 damage.

Edit: I just noticed someone posted this while glancing over the replys... I didn't feel like reading them prior to this, but oh well.

Lampshade · Aug 06, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

What if there arnt any traps around?

Seron Dalar · Aug 06, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

^^^That's kinda what Signet of Determination is for, but I figured non-Elementalists shouldn't have Glyphs, so it's a Signet and slightly different than Glyphs.

^^I know, I already explained why it's different. Sleight of Hand's target area is the area surrounding the caster, not the target-- it's like Inferno or Flame Burst.

^Well, then the skill fails. Admittedly, it's not useful all the time, but I think it might be nice to have. Even if you just Detected the traps and then pointed them out to your party (unless the party also was able to see them, not sure how that would work), it would still be useful in avoiding them.

Otsegoflesh · Aug 07, 2005, 10:07 AM // 10:07

continuing with the notion that "every build must have a counter-build", i think the rogue/ninja/samurai expansion should also come with a specific counter character class, one that makes sure the rogue is kept in check and keeps the game balanced. anyway, what im trying to say is that having a pirate class would also rock. they could be like a berserker or something, all out crazy offensive with antique guns and lots of booze. moves could involve drinking and.. stuff.

thexgodfatherx69 · Aug 10, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Good general idea! I agree there needs to be a rogue class.... but then who would want to trade with a rogue!? You know they are going to try and trick the best deal out of you!

There should be a pick pocketing skill but what would the consequences be if it failed?? These games are all so gold driven its almost sad! black dye sells for 30k at the vendor now... I think that is absurd... yes i digress ... a little text formating would have helped when you prestend your idea =)

Maltare · Aug 10, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Best thought out character class proposal ive seen yet. Not sure if I like it yet or not. To include it would require a huge balancing act that would change the game drastically, and for that reason I don't think I would like another character class of any type to be added.

MCS · Aug 10, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Well I mean at least you put thought into this :\. Having a class that can only be countered by the same class is kinda, uh, bad.... Remove any of those invis skills and detecting skills then I'm happy.

Considering the average rogue thread is like

Quote:

DUDE LYKE LETS PUT ROGUES WITH LIKE KNIFES AND POISIONS THEY CAN BE ALL SNEAKY LIKE AND HAVE LIKE MOUNTS DID I MENTION THEY USE DAGGERS YAH YAH121!

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 10, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

No offense, but isn't "The Rogue" just an R/W? Seriously, if they can't steal gold from other players, what's the point?

Name: Throw Money
Description: Type in ammount of money you want to throw at the enemy, you do 1 damage for every 10 gold you enter! Maximum 800-1200 gold. (Skill, not hours played or money spent!

)
Cast time: Instant
Recharge: 50
Type: Skill
Attribute: Subterfuge

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name: Wealthy Mark
Description: Set up a booth with 3-10 cups on top. Target enemy sits down to play while caster shuffles cups; target enemy tries to guess which cup has a small, red ball under it. If the target enemy picks the wrong cup, he loses 800-1200 gold (If he cannot afford he loses 800-1200 health) Wealthy Mark ends if caster hears police sirens.
Cast time: 10 (For setting up booth and buying foam cups 50-25c for a pack of 75-100)
Recharge: 45
Type: Skill
Attribute: Subterfuge

Is it really that smart of a thing to have Agility AND Dexterity? Under the right context they both mean the same thing.

carnivore · Aug 10, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Sagius said just what i was thinking. rogues are basically covered by the me/w and r/w

however, the build you came up with was very well thought out and i have to give you credit for it. but its just so focused around traps, a rangers domain. and even then rangers only have 3 normal traps and 1 elite trap and they dont even get to see there OWN traps. other than that the rest of the skills you came up with sound fun and i'd like to see them added in somehow, via new class or even just add it on to current classes

and that ambush spell...is just scary as hell...

manga · Aug 10, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

I do agree that ambush and the other invisibilities may be overpowered. But if you take into accout NR, the 3-4 second cast time (likely), and the ability to keep attacking and even call an invisible target... I see a small problem with it Vs. inexperienced teams, but not much else.

I also think it would be hilariuos to use ambush and spike, they'd never know what hit 'em. Lets see, 6 spikers, one or 2 with ambush and 2 healers with self invis, maybe ambush as well.

Seron Dalar · Aug 10, 2005, 04:26 AM // 04:26

I considered having the ability to steal gold, items, and other stuff, but it just doesn't fit with Guild Wars. There's nothing even close to that anywhere else in the game. This ain't WoW.

R/W's? Me/W's? Not really, I don't see how.

Technically, I'm pretty sure "agility" is the capability to switch momentum quickly. (Like, running full speed, stopping, then running the other way.) Dexterity is more how nimble or skillful you are with your hands. The name isn't important, I just put whatever sounded right. I considered Finesse and Dagger Use instead of Dagger Mastery-- doesn't really matter.

About traps... I figure there should be a few more Rogue traps to sort of validate those trap-killing skills, I just didn't think of any. And it's not that focused on traps... only four of those were trap-related (except the actual Traps), and I don't see any reason to have more than that, except possibly an Elite that disarms all in an area or something. The ability to mess with traps completely fits the idea for a Rogue, and doesn't seem unbalancing. Besides, you only get eight skills-- unless you were playing an all-Rogue team or something (a terrifying thought), how many people would pass up other skills in favor of those trap killers, even with new Rogue (and maybe new Ranger) traps? Few enough that traps would still be viable.

Heh, Ambush... the key to that is that if it ends for anyone, the entire team is revealed. So if you mistime it and someone on the other team targets somebody, then proceeds to hit that person, the whole thing is wrecked, or if someone casts an Attunement spell or something, same deal. Another way of balancing it. But if you coordinate everything well, it'd be devastating, not to mention loads of fun for the Ambushers. I think it'd also be funny to see two teams using it at the same time.

Probably the best argument against it is what MCS said-- by far the best way to counter a Rogue would be, well, another Rogue. However... keeping the hiding skills' durations low means that you have to put it on while you're out of the other team's mini-map completely, and you only have so much time to sneak up and make use of it. I'd say that yes, some more skills should probably be added to other classes to keep Rogues in line, but by including self-counters I'm trying to ensure balance even without that.

So basically, the biggest problem I see is how to deal with hiding. Here's what I'll propose, tell me your thoughts. If you target someone and they hide, you retain the targeting and see maybe a blurred (flashing?) version of the avatar. If you call that person, other people on your team can then T target them to get the same thing, but if they don't, they can't target. Once the hidden person takes damage, they're still blurred and things like Dark Strike still work, but everyone can see them and target them. The only way of removing the actual hiding is by removing the enchantment with NR, Shatter Enchantment, Rend Enchantments, whatever. Once the hidden person attacks or uses an ability, unless you have some spell that allows for that, the enchantment ends completely.

I'd say that's fair. I mean, all you need is a Mesmer or Necro with the right skill targeting them, or Nature's Renewal, and it's gone, plus you only get 20 seconds or so to make use of it anyway. (Hence Shadow Walk.) But if you disagree, go ahead and tell me.